Jimmy: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. It's Unpacking Peanuts and it is a very exciting day today and I'll be your host for the proceedings. My name is Jimmy Gownley. I'm also a cartoonist. I did things like Amelia Rules, 7 good reasons not to Grow up, the dumbest idea ever. And you can read my brand new comic, Tanner Rocks over at gvillecomics.substack.com for free.
And joining me, as always, are my pals, co hosts and fellow cartoonists. He's a playwright and a composer, both for the band Complicated People, as well as for this very podcast. He's the co creator of the original comic book price guide and the original editor of Amelia Rules, and the creator of such great strips as, Strange Attractors, A Gathering of Spells and Tangled River. It's Michael Cohen.
Michael: Say hey.
Jimmy: And he's the executive producer and writer of Mystery Science Theater 3000, a former Vice president of Archie Comics, and the creator of the Instagram sensation Sweetest Beasts. It's Harold Buchholz.
Harold: Hello.
Jimmy: Well, guys, I want everyone on their best behavior today because we have a guest in studio, someone, we're very excited to have. Rheta Grimsley Johnson is joining us today. Now, Rheta is the author of over 9,000 columns, in Memphis, Atlanta, and part of King Feature Syndicate. She's the author of several books, including memoirs such as The Dos Buried Over the Bridge - A Memoir in Dog Years and Hank Hung the Moon and Warmed Out Our Cold, Cold Hearts. And most importantly to us and this podcast, she is the author of Good Grief, the Story of Charles M. Schulz, the first and only authorized biography of Mr. Schulz. Rheta is here today. I can't be more excited about it. Rheta, welcome to the show.
Rheta : Thank you so much. I'm really honored.
Jimmy: Oh, well, the honor is absolutely all ours. Now, can you, take us back to before the book was even a glimmer in your eye? Where did Peanuts and Charles Schulz's work it first enter your life?
Rheta : It's been in my life all of my life. And I was a-- I loved the comic pages. So I gotta admit, I read a lot of Dick Tracy and that kind of the Heart of Juliet Jones, those kind of strips, more than I did. But, And then, as fate would have it, I married a cartoonist and he felt like you three do, that, you know, that Peanuts was the gold standard. And so I heard a lot about Peanuts, and I read a lot of Peanuts before I ever met Charles Schulz. I just wanted to say that, I worked for a Scripps Howard newspaper in Memphis, and Scripps Howard owned United Feature, that of course, owned Peanuts. And Sarah Gillespie, who edited Peanuts at the time. I knew her because, my husband. Sorry, not late-- ex husband, Jimmy’s strip Arlo and Janis, she came to our home in Mississippi to, for him to sign the contract. So we got to be, you know, acquaintances. And, so she thought of me when Ferros Books decided they wanted to celebrate the 40th anniversary of Peanuts with a book about Charles Schulz.
Harold: So this would have been around 1985 that you met her?
Rheta : No, I met her. Let's see, 1983.
Harold: 83, okay.
Jimmy: And you were already an author at that point or a writer for newspapers and that sort of thing?
Rheta : I was just a newspaper hack, but I had won a couple of, prizes and I think that always convinces editors they did a good thing hiring you. So my job was pretty secure. But I was writing four columns a week and I never stopped. One month while working on this book, they let me take a break from the columns. I think they knew I was going to miss my book deadline if I didn't. So anyway, that's how he didn't want to. He was not keen on the idea of, book length feature about, you know, Schulz is so retiring and he didn't really want to do it. So they sent me out to Santa Rosa to see if we got along and see if he would give me a thumbs up and anyway, I should quit talking so much. But.
Jimmy: No, that's why you're here. Yes, they hear enough from us.
Rheta : Lucky for me that, Schulz loved Southern women fiction writers.
Jimmy: Oh, that's right.
Rheta : He loved. Eudora Welty was one of his favorites. And I had seen Eudora Welty in the Jitney Jungle in Jackson, Mississippi. Oh, my gosh, I played all my strengths. you know, he had that Minnesota reserve, and I'm just a, jabberwocky from South Georgia. And by the. I was to stay three days to let him decide. And at the end of the three days, he knew everything about me. I knew nothing about him. So I was very surprised when he agreed that we could go ahead with this. And I was, I had reservations. You know, I was a journalist and an authorized biography is, as you know, problematic for a journalist perhaps, but I just couldn't resist. I mean, the opportunity to talk to Charles Schulz just overcame any reservations I had. So, it began.
Harold: So could I ask you, Rheta, I know in the biography and things I've learned about you, you were often a traveling reporter. I mean, you were finding stories through travel. What period was that when you were doing that sort of reporting?
Rheta : Well, I started out just like everybody else in the newspaper business did at that time. You know, I wrote obits. I was assigned county commission meetings and, you know, just dull stuff. And one day the editorial page editor posted in Memphis, posted a little thing on the bulletin board saying, anyone that wants to submit an op ed piece can do so. And I went back to my office and wrote about four and submitted them, and one was published. And it, it got a lot of reaction. And so the editor assigned me a column, a Sunday column on top of my reporting duties. I was still, you know, doing the county commission meetings, but, the column became sort of popular. Modestly, popular, I should say. And, that would have been 1985. So I had not really been roaming around at will for very long when this opportunity came about.
Harold: Okay, and you also won the Ernie Pyle Award. And Ernie Pyle was known for kind of the same thing. He would travel around and collect stories during World War II. did that.
Rheta : Yes. And, you know, he was my all time journalism hero. And Schulz didn't know about Ernie Pyle's, Home Country period. The columns he did, he did lots. Like, I think it was nine or ten years worth of columns before he went to war. And I remember taking, as a gift, first time I met Schulz, the book Home Country. And that didn't hurt either because he was, as, you know, Bill Mauldin fan.
Harold: Yes. Yeah, I could see how that would. He would definitely spark to that work. And I can't imagine. And when did the syndication happen for you? When you, I'm assuming you were still doing the traveling when King Features picked you up and you were in multiple newspapers. So you've experienced on your own side the nature of syndication, just like Schulz did.
Rheta : Yes, I have. Scripps Howard syndicated it first. They had the Scripps Howard Newswire, and they didn't. I didn't get any extra pay for it, but it, you know, ran in hundreds of newspapers all over the country. That was exciting. But it didn't pay the, you know, it didn't help pay my car bills, so.
Harold: Right.
Jimmy: It's amazing how all these businesses leave that part out.
Harold: Mere oversight.
Rheta : Very glamorous. But you can't pay the rent. But anyway, finally they gave me extra income, to continue writing the column and continue working in Memphis. But I got a really nice offer in 94 from Atlanta and that's when King Features picked up the column and they syndicated it. So.
Harold: And then you got treated more, more like a syndicated. You, you got a share of what was put in the papers. So I see that in your, in your biography, you know, an understanding of a number of things related to cartooning. you know, being married to Jimmy Johnson and Arlo and Janis and also having been through, well, syndication was coming for you. That was, that was going to be a few years after this book came out. But you were around that. You kind of knew what that was like and you really get a strong sense of it in the book, which I'm really grateful for.
Rheta : I think it's the fairest pay you can, you can have in our business. so, you know, you get pretty much half of anybody's willing to pay, so.
Jimmy: Right, yeah, that is a great deal. I mean, I mean, I mean a great deal, but it is a fair deal. Absolutely.
Harold: And the traveling reporter seems like something there wasn't. That was something that there were not a whole lot of people that were doing what you were doing, certainly not getting it syndicated. And being all around the country, that's really a special place to be. And as somebody who's kind of collecting stories from around, around, and, and being able to share it with all over the country, I think that's just amazing.
Rheta : Surprisingly enough, the Memphis paper was the, I think the, the best newspaper I worked for at the time. It was. They were never, you know, they never said, no, you can't go to, you can't go to California and write about whatever, I was writing about. They always went along with my ideas. And Atlanta was a little more-- They didn't like my politics. And though Atlanta was the most liberal paper I ever worked for, but they still, they had a whole floor of political columnists. So they sort of took away half my arsenal for a while. But just, I just kept writing about whatever interested me and it somehow worked. I did okay in all the reader surveys.
Harold: And so Memphis is where you are when, when Sarah Gillespie comes to you and says, can you do this book? And the Memphis paper is essentially behind you. They understand you're doing this, it's a major project and they gave you some of that leeway to actually finish it. I'm sure it was a huge undertaking. You interview a lot of people in this book .
Rheta : and don't forget writing four columns a week the whole while.
Harold: It's amazing.
Jimmy: I mean, not only the workload, but just all the topics that you'd have to, That's a lot.
Rheta : What I would do is, When I was in Santa Rosa, which I think I went. I tried to figure this out last night, but my memory's so bad. Either went six or seven times and spent two weeks each time. And I would just shadow Sparky, and just, you know, I'd, be at the arena when he got there for breakfast. I would sit there while he drew his cartoons. And, he could, he could double task, he could talk to me and do that.
Jimmy: And while he's coming up with ideas for this trip.
Rheta : Yes. And sometimes he would. I found this just amazing. He would say these oddball things like, I'll never forget, one day he said, why are the pages to the Bible so thin? I'm gonna see this in the funny papers. But I never did. So I may be reading too much into his, you know, off the cuff, weird comments. But anyway, I would sit there and then in the afternoons he would-- I mean, sometimes I would follow him around the afternoons, but usually he would take a nap, play golf, do something, and I would go find a column. And I couldn't, obviously I couldn't write about Charles Schulz and what I was saving for the book. I remember one day I drove to Bodega Bay because that's where they had filmed the Hitchcock film The Birds. And I got a column out of there.
Jimmy: Yeah, sure.
Rheta : And I went with them to some reception for Dale Messick, who drew Brenda Starr and, yeah, you know, so that wasn't important to the book. So I wrote about that. So I was always. I mean, that's what I did. I had I find columns wherever. And some weren't great while, during that period because I was a little busy, but it somehow worked out.
Jimmy: Now, did you get to watch him actually draw the strip? You know, sit at the desk?
Rheta : Oh, yeah.
Jimmy: And that whole thing. Oh, that. Boy, I'm jealous. What was that like?
Rheta : Oh, I, mean, even as a non cartoonist, I knew enough from Jimmy and all his cartoonist friends that I was privileged to, you know, see the process and to see him actually doing this. And I have to say that there were some unhappy things after the book was published, but mostly it was the best thing that ever happened to me in my journalism career. And not just sitting there watching Charles Schulz draw. I got to talk to Bill Mauldin on the phone anyway, he is an all time hero. I mean, I just. And it was such a great experience. I dressed up for a telephone interview.
Harold: Oh, that's awesome.
Liz: As we did today, too.
Jimmy: That sounds like the most Southern thing I've ever heard anyone say. I dressed up for a phone interview. That's fantastic.
Rheta : Well, I did it for Willie Nelson. I'm like, it's Willie.
Jimmy: Oh, those are the big two, right? Mauldin and Nelson. That's awesome.
Harold: You got such a great quote from Bill Mauldin. I remember he said, the thing about Schulz's work is the soul behind it. That's why it's great. He's a preacher at heart. All good cartoonists are jack leg preachers. There is a very strong moral tone there. And those two were very different from each other, even though they were also very simpatic and they really respected one another.
Rheta : They were like negative opposites, I would say. I mean, you know, Bill Mauldin, famous for his swilling beer and being, you know, normal. Joe. And then Schulz, who admit it, was sort of proud of the fact that he was a prude. So they were very different.
Harold: Yeah. I think you also asked him, well, if you ever did get together, would you be quaffing root beers? And I think he said, no, it wouldn't be root beers.
Rheta : And I have a feeling that was true. And so a lot of really good things came from writing the book. And not much money, but a lot of, I got a modest advance, which is the most money I've ever made on a book. So I can't complain. but it was, it was authorized. But, I would like to say that he did have veto over every word, but he only changed two things. One was a great quote, and I-- It hurt me that he wouldn't leave it in, but he played golf with Alan Shepard, the astronaut.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Rheta : And he said, he said the only good drive that man ever had was on the moon. And. And of course. I see.
Jimmy: But if you're gonna only have one.
Rheta : Good one, that's a good place.
Harold: So that he did not want in. He didn't want to insult Alan. Well, that's interesting.
Rheta : He didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.
Harold: He did have some sharp words that, yeah.
Rheta : He didn't care about other cartoonists. He hurt their feelings all the time. He could be really petty about other cartoonists. And. And yeah, that didn't bother him at all.
Harold: That's interesting. Yeah. I remember what he said about Doonesbury. he said, I hate it when people ask do you ever deal in social issues, you know, like Doonesbury? And I always say I deal in more social issues in one month than Doonesbury deals in all year. I deal in issues that are much more important than drawing four pictures of the White House. Yeah, that's pretty pointed.
Rheta : Yeah. Well, he. I love Doonesbury, don't get me wrong. But I think in a way Schulz, was right. He said he didn't want, there to be a need for footnotes. If somebody looked at his cartoons like you are 50 years later, he, he just didn't want that. And he dealt in verities, of course, and that's why he liked Hank Williams. Hank Williams did the same thing, you know, love, loss, rejection. And that's why his music has lasted. So I think he was right. He didn't have to be so smug, about it.
Jimmy: Sure he did. That's part of the fun. Well, speaking of Hank Williams, you got quite a scoop. I mean, it's clear that he, he trusted you because, as I understand it, it's pretty late in the proceedings of you writing this book and he tells you that the little red haired girl is a real person. Is that right?
Rheta : Yes, he told me maybe halfway through our year of talking in interviews, he told me she was. And I said, what's her name? I should talk to her. And he said, no, I don't want to invade her privacy. But he would tease me all along. He would say things about the little red haired girl. And then I had maybe two weeks before the final deadline and he gave me her name and her phone number. Donna Johnson Wold. And I had to get a plane. I went and interviewed her in person. I thought, this is going to save the book. because frankly, he was a little dull. Biography about a dull man is dull. I was so happy.
Jimmy: A guy sits at a desk for 50 years and...
Rheta :, you know, you could see when he walked between the arena and his studio, he was such a creature of routine that when he left the ice rink every morning in the little cafeteria and walked to the studio and I was, you know, I'd walk with him when I was there. And there was a worn path. I mean, he just was a creature of habit. And so I felt really relieved when he told me about Donna.
Jimmy: And so did she have any heads up that you were going to be called? Like, how did, how did you make that connection? And what was her reaction? Just tell as much as you can about that.
Rheta : I think I called her initially or maybe emailed, but I probably called at that point. I told her that Sparky had given me her name and told me a little about their romance and that. That there was going to be a picture of her in this book. And she didn't seem hesitant at all. She said, yes, come visit. I would like to see you.
Harold: That's great.
Rheta : I found her house without much trouble. And I met her husband, though he very graciously left while we talked. His name was Al.
Jimmy: It's probably a good move, Al.
Harold: He seemed like very understanding guy.
Rheta : I think I mentioned that he was just a totally nice guy. He warmed the bird bath water for the birds and stuff like that. But what I remember, at one point during the interview, she left the room and came back with a brown paper grocery sack. And in it she had clipped all of the strips that mentioned the little redheaded girl. And that was. She didn't have any frame. She didn't make a big deal of it. And she even said, at first I thought it was just a composite of Sparky's girlfriends. And I believed her. I mean, this woman was guileless and genuine.
Jimmy: But what would that be a composite of, like two people? Like, I mean.
Rheta : Don’t be cruel. That's, what she said. And I, I believed her. I believed every word that woman said. And at the end, of course, she said, if he dies first, the whole world will know. If I die. I've asked Al to send him a little note. So there you go.
Harold: That's lovely.
Jimmy: Absolutely amazing.
Rheta : And I just remember thinking all the way home. This chapter saves the book.
Harold: Well, it just, what a scoop it was.
Rheta : And Paul Harvey, remember that? Sure. Used to do the rest of the story. And he did my little red haired girl scoop as if it were his own. He never attributed,
Jimmy: Are you kidding me?
Rheta: No, I'm not. And I was so angry.
Jimmy: I don't blame you.
Harold: Wow, that's true. He never really did give many attributions to where he got the stories, did he?
Jimmy: No.
Rheta : Heck no. He just, you know, he listened to Johnny Carson at night and use a joke. I mean, if he'd had a sense of humor. I don't think he actually did that. Well, I'll have to tell a story on Jimmy Johnson because his father was a textile milll worker his whole life. And you know, he worked with all these old mossbacks that were just horrible. But he loved. They all loved Paul Harvey. And they would take their break so they could listen to Paul Harvey. And one day Paul Harvey mentioned Jimmy's editorial cartoon that he had drawn in Jackson, Mississippi. Yeah. And so. Oh, that was the first time that Harold-- that was Jimmy's father's name. Harold was so proud.
Jimmy: That's very wild that you have a Jimmy and a Harold in your life.
Harold: That's right. Yeah.
Rheta : That's how I'm remembering the names here. And Michael was my first boyfriend at Auburn, so I'm good. well, the reason that I was so happy about the little red haired girl and felt it saved the book was because of the second thing he killed. There was the Alan Shepherd sentence, but then there was a whole chapter and it actually wasn't Sparky.
Jimmy: This was what I was going to ask you about.
Rheta : Okay. It wasn't, Sparky who killed it, it was Jeannie. and I didn't blame her, but it was quite disappointing. In May of 1988 and I was still flying out there and spending two weeks at a time and I'd come back and write and then, you know, I would run the chapters by Schulz, who never made any changes. So I went out in May and he told me he brought it up because it never made national news or anything else. I checked this morning and you can Google it and find a couple of newspaper accounts, but two masked gunmen went into the Schulz home on a Sunday in May of 1988. And they pointed revolvers at Sparky and Jeannie and said they were going to-- said, we're going to kidnap Jeannie. We're going to take her. And about that time, Jill, the daughter Jill, comes barreling in in her car up the driveway and this scared the kidnappers and they aborted the attempt and they let you know, they, they got the hell out of there. So nobody was ever caught. But at the time I was hearing about it, there was still a good chance they might catch somebody. So that was the other reason they didn't. And then copycat, you know, things going on. They were right. They were worried about it being in the book. But I don't think Sparky was all that worried. He told me in great detail and I wish I had saved a copy of that chapter I didn't read. But anyway, he told me all about it. I wrote the work. Next time I went out, he read it. But when the whole book was being reviewed, it got killed.
Harold: Yeah, that's understandable.
Rheta : Yeah, it is. But being the old flinty-eyed reporter, I really wanted the chapter about the kidnapping in there. But wasn’t to be.
Harold: Well, Rheta and you said this was an authorized biography, and I'm sure you were grateful that Schulz really wasn't coming in and trying to just excise every little thing that might make him look bad or say something that might be a little too sharp. And one of the things that I really liked that you did and that I'm glad he didn't fight you on. We know that Schulz did not like the name of this strip, Peanuts. It was. It was imposed upon him. And you really kind of laid it out really well, I thought, as to why he objected to it, it was a point of pride, I guess, that that's the one thing. It's so funny, the one thing that of his strip, he was responsible for every piece of it except for its title. And that must have really stung. But what. I loved that you did, and I think you're right. In the book, as you said, you defended the title, Peanuts. It was better than Schulz's title. And, I thought that was really interesting in an authorized biography, you, the biographer, are saying Schulz was wrong here. This was actually a superior title that was imposed upon him to Lil folks, which is what he wanted to call it.
Rheta : And it was, Bill Anderson, by the way. It was his suggestion that one. He's the one that came up with Peanuts, though Rutman and all the others agreed that it was the best. But, I heard one of your podcasts where you. I think you thought it was Larry Rutman, and it was actually Bill Anderson's idea.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Rheta : But anyway, yeah, he. Even though he still thought he was right, he just didn't change things like that. He didn't change anything. I've told you. Really, truthfully, the two. Two objections he had. And the kidnapping thing wasn't even his objection. I think I conveyed his grudging disdain for almost all other cartoonists. Yes, he let a few women get through the...
Harold: He trusted you, and he let you record the version of him that you saw. And I don't think he disagreed with much of it, from what I can tell.
Rheta : Well, he was smart enough. He was so brilliant, and not just in the cartooning sense. He was the best read person I think I've ever met. He was smart enough to know that if it was all just a big, glossy puff piece, that nobody would take it seriously. It would look just like the PR department at United Media had, you know, gone into overdrive, and he'd had a lot of that kind of thing. So, he brought up things that I didn't even know to ask, really. I possibly should have guessed if I'd been a student of the strip the way, the way all of you are. But you know, I was sent out there really quickly and had to do it quickly. He brought up his depression. I didn't know to delve into that. Yeah, and that really made me mad when after the book called Charles and Peanuts came out, Monty the son, the son, Monty Schulz had a lot to say about how the depression was overblown. And I think he, I think he kind of targeted me. Well, it really made me mad because all a journalist has is, you know, your reputation for accuracy. And and he had brought it up, plus he could have taken it out not only in 1988, he could have taken all references, out of it in 1995 when we did a paperback book. And he again could have changed anything. So I really, I was lucky. I was lucky. It could have gone the other way. He could have been, you know, he could have censored everything I wanted to say, but he did not do that.
Harold: Yeah, well, that says a lot about, about him. And it really did seem the way you depict it in the book is that he almost wore that depression as a badge of honor, that he recognized that it was a part of the greatness of what he was doing in that strip. And to, and to remove it would take some of the understanding of why it was so unique and so special.
Rheta : He, would have, he would have bouts of this, though he was never real happy out of routine. But I know right after my book came out, he flew to France to get an award. And I thought, oh my God, I look like a fool. But no, I am pretty in rereading it last week. I stand by everything. I had one factual error. That's embarrassing. I said that the Burbank Airport where we flew in to go see Mendelson was where they filmed the goodbye scene in Casablanca. And that's because Schulz told me that Mendelson mentioned it. Everybody told me that and I should have checked.
Jimmy: Oh, well, forget it. This interview is over. I cannot believe that.
Rheta : Well, a colleague, a reporter colleague found it, you know, gleefully reported that I had made a mistake.
Jimmy: Of course, of course.
Rheta : It had been a decades-old myth. Everybody thought that was where they filmed it, but turns out it was, somewhere else. Van Nuys airport, which was nearby.
Jimmy: Well, I am glad we were able to correct that here.
Harold: Yes, beyond him going to France, right after the book came out, after you said that he wasn't doing that so much. Were there any other surprises or thoughts on Schulz's last decade after the fact that you noted as someone who was-- had spent so much time with him that kind of came out in the last 10 years of his life.
Rheta : I went and met with him for I think another week to do an afterward to the paperback. And it seemed to me, others might disagree that things were rocking right along in the same fashion.
Rheta : He and Jeannie seemed very happy. That is the only trip when I actually spent the night at their home. He would put visitors up at a motel there that he It was very nice but you, you just didn't, you know, get an invite to the big house. But I did that time and you know, they were surrounded by beauty. Of course the house later burned. I was glad he wasn't around to see that. But you know it was. They had wonderful art, but it was not an ostentatious place. it was. I remember there was a cricket in the house that night. And that's the biting memory I have is I got up trying to find-- The house was sort of one with nature. And I don't know, he seemed if anything maybe a little more content and happy in the five years that had passed.
Rheta : He seemed.
Harold: I'm glad to hear that.
Rheta : Yeah, I don't. He wasn't miserable. and I don't think I ever said that he was. He called it a Melancholy and. And I think for somebody, yeah, that's creative. That's probably part and parcel of that kind of genius. I really believe that.
Jimmy: Well, and in your book, you know, it's not like you're like this is the dark genius of Charles. I mean my favorite chapter in the book is Wisteria and Warm Puppies where you're sort of just kind of talking about his life as a cartoonist. I think that's the chapter anyway.
Rheta : Yeah.
Jimmy: In Santa Rosa and it like that was an ideal for me as a kid. Like oh man, are you kidding me? That's just a great life. So it really felt to me like a person. Like a real person. Of course a person can have a great life and still have bouts of melancholy. A person can write great comedy and have it fueled by sadness. And I feel like your book really, really shows that.
Harold: Yes. Now, did you read Michaelis book?
Rheta : Did I. Yes. And he he flew to Memphis to interview me and I met him in Memphis. I was already living here where I live in this dark place, Mississippi Hollow. But I drove over to Memphis and, and we met and I had read his N.C. Wyeth book and was impressed, you know, very impressed. And I, evidently Jeannie and the rest of the family were very impressed too, to give such access. But, when I, when I met with him, some of the questions he asked me bothered me and I couldn't quite put my finger on it. but I thought, oh, if this is what he's going after, he, he's really going to be disappointed. I mean, N.C. Wyeth had the scandalous affair with his daughter-in-law and, and you know, and that sort of put that book on the map. I think Vanity Fair did excerpts and I just didn't think he was going to find anything like that with Sparky. And, and I don't think he did. you know, I read every word of that book. But who was it? Was it Mark Twain or Benjamin Franklin or Willie Nelson? Somebody said, you know, biography is but the buttons on the coat of a man. And I know that, you know, for whatever happened with Joyce and Sparky and all of that is. I didn't consider that part of the, my assignment anyway. And yes, in a detailed biography, it had a place. But I really got the feeling that's what he was after, interviewing me.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: Yes. How would you describe the tone of Michaelis book versus the man that you got to know?
Rheta : I am on, I'm sure, a massive list, Christmas card list that Jeannie sends out every year. And that year when his book came out, which he worked on for seven years, she said, and I'm looking at it here, she said, it is still as if you were looking at a house to buy and you only look into one small bedroom. That makes it pretty worthless as a picture of Sparky. And I thought that was dead on, that, you know, he had seven years. I couldn't work on anything for seven years and make my house payment and my car payment. So he had patrons, I guess.
Jimmy: Right. I actually never even thought about that. Wow.
Rheta : Yeah. And so, And this is what you come up with about the cartooning genius of all time? Yeah, I thought parts of the book were impressive, but I don't know, I think he, he spent too much time on that. On his romances. Supposed romances.
Jimmy: Yeah. Well, listen, how about we take a quick break right now and then we'll come back. You have selected three of your favorite Peanuts strips and we'll go through those and, get your thoughts on them. Sound good?
Rheta : Sounds good.
Jimmy: All right, we will be right back.
Rheta : Okay.
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VO: Hi, everyone. I just want to take a moment to remind you that all three hosts are cartoonists themselves and their work is available for sale. You can find links to purchase books by Jimmy, Harold and Michael on our website. You can also support the show on Patreon or buy us a mud pie. Check out the store link on unpackingpeanuts.com.
Jimmy: And we are back. So, Rheta, I am so excited that you have selected three comic strips that we're gonna discuss. All right. Okay, Here we go.
October 26, 1969. Linus is sitting on a little stool watching TV and he's very excited. He's yelling, go, go, go. And in the second panel, he jumps off his little stool with pure joy and excitement. And then he yells, fantastic. Then we hard cut to outside where Charlie Brown is playing in the yard with a football and Linus comes running up to him and says, Charlie Brown, I just saw the most unbelievable football game ever played. What a comeback. Linus continues, the home team was behind six to nothing with only three seconds to play. They had the ball in their own 1 yard line. Linus continues, the quarterback took the ball, faded back behind his own goal posts and threw a perfect pass to the left end, who whirled away from four guys and ran all the way for a touchdown. The fans went wild. You should have seen them. Linus is still going on. People were jumping up and down and when they kicked the extra point, thousands of people ran out onto the field laughing and screaming. The fans and the players were so happy, they were rolling on the ground and hugging each other and dancing and everything. Then Linus concludes with, it was fantastic. To which Charlie Brown says, how did the other team feel?
Rheta : Okay, well, I went to Auburn University, which is in the same state as the University of Alabama.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Rheta : Always, sympathetic to losers. It's as simple as that. I loved the fact that, Schulz didn't much care for football and he would make fun of people that painted their chest and did really crazy things. So, I don't know. This strip spoke to me because of the losing, that Auburn people are really good at losing.
Jimmy: Well, it's just one of the funniest strips. I mean, I think it would make a contender for the top 10 Peanuts strips of all time. One thing I always wondered about, or just kind of mused on was that even towards the end of his life, people would say, oh, well, you're Charlie Brown to him. And you're. Because, you know, Charlie Brown's a loser, and he represents all your losses. And he. Schulz really clearly felt these losses. But can you think of someone who's more of a winner than Charles Schulz? I mean, how do you. What do you think that dichotomy was about? You know, that he could. People think, oh, yeah, like a sad sack. But yet he's a billionaire. The most successful person who ever did what he did.
Rheta : Well, I think what they forgot is that he was. Not only had Charlie Brown in him, he also had Snoopy and Linus. He was a philosopher, and he loved music like Schroeder. I mean, he was. And he could be crabby and petty like Lucy. He was all the characters rolled into one. I think he. He was not just a loser, Charlie Brown. And I don't know why. If you're that rich and that popular, you can't just be secure in that, but you've seen that a lot. It doesn't always work that way. So.
Jimmy: Right. I guess imposter syndrome. and.
Rheta : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the more successful you are, the more sure you're going to be found out or not ever be able to do it again. I mean, there's a book called Ross and Tom. First rattle out of the box they produced Braintree County and Mr. Roberts, and. And they both committed suicide. I mean, not together, or they didn't know each other, but. But that was just such a fear that they would never be able to top what they had done the first time. So, yeah, I guess it's something akin to that.
Jimmy: I'm glad I don't have that fear.
Rheta : Me either.
Harold: That's good.
Rheta : The best is yet to come.
Jimmy: That's right. Yeah. All right. And our next strip is
October 18, 1988. Peppermint Patty and Marcie are sitting, in a theater. They've just seen a play. Both of them have big smiles on their face. And Peppermint Patty, with delight, says, that was a great play, Marcie. And then she applauds, shouting out, book writer. Book writer. To which Marcy leans over and whispers, author. And this sends Peppermint Patty sinking down, embarrassed, into her seat in the theater.
Rheta : Well, this is, my explanation for what is a funny strip by any measure. But, when people find out that you're interviewing Charles Schulz and that you and I have a lot of cartoonist friends because of Jimmy, and working for newspapers for so long, they all want an original. And I did not want to ask for originals, but I broke, my promise to myself and asked for two originals signed to other people. and then I thought, well, I don't even get a signed original. and Schulz, at that time, every morning he would sign an original, it seemed like, and send it out to someone. So I didn't think I was, yeah, being too forward. But anyway, I never asked him for one for myself. And then one day in the mail, that strip arrived and I have the signed copy, hanging in my office.
Jimmy: that is fantastic.
Rheta : I guess he thought of me as Book writer. Book writer. But it's just a priceless memory.
Harold: Yes, he's thinking, yes.
Rheta : And I didn't have to ask, right? I didn't have to ask.
Harold: Oh, another thing I wanted to mention, Rheta, you captured so many stories of where characters came from, and we've been talking about the character Lydia. I don't know if you remember Lydia. She was the girl that told Linus she thought he was too old for her. And you basically got to share who that character was. Was he just volunteering that. Those things to you, or were you asking him like, where did this come from? Where did this come from?
Rheta : Well, a little of both. Sometimes he would just dump one on me, you know, but I, you know, I, I tried to dig a little and find out where some of the characters came from, but I know from writing a column that it's not always simple to say, Where your idea came from, certainly. But even it's not autobiographical. It's just usually not. You write about a tree and somebody thinks you're writing about them and.
Jimmy: Well, actually, you know, I want to ask you one last thing before we get to the last strip that I'm curious about. One of the big features in your book, one of the big sections is the 12 Devices. and he, the 12 things that he said he, believes made the strip a success. Can you. Did he volunteer those 12 things? Was that something you asked him about or how did that section happen?
Rheta : I asked him. I didn't say 12, but I said, can you tell me the things that you think made the strip work? And he said, I have the piece of the legal pad where he wrote it down and he thought about it overnight. He didn't write it all down that second. But, the next day he had this list on a yellow legal pad page, and I went from there. But I did ask about it and he, he complied.
Jimmy: Do you think that was something he had, he had thought about beforehand, or do you think that was the first time he thought and said, okay, if I could look at the, at the history of the strip. Where are, the. Was that the first time he considered it that way? I guess is what I'm asking.
Rheta : I doubt it. I think he had talked a lot about this kind of thing to other people, feature writers over the years, and. But I don't know if he had ever put a number to it. and I like to think that, you know, the question prodded him to think about it a bit more, maybe. But, he got a lot of criticism for repetition and he paid no attention to it. Thank goodness it worked. And people like it. They like to expect things that they are comfortable with. And anyway, I think that chapter worked out well. And there is a chapter called Neighborhoods. That he did not suggest or write anything down, but when he read it, he really liked that chapter.
Jimmy: Well, that's a huge. That's a wonderful chapter. And one of the things I. I talked about that chapter on this podcast, some time ago, just the fact that you can almost look at the 3-- At least three aspects of Peanuts as completely different comic strips. It's like, it's like a big universe that sometimes it's the Charlie Brown show, but sometimes it's the Peppermint Patty show, and sometimes it's the Snoopy show, and yet sometimes they all work together. I thought that chapter was fantastic, I have to say.
Rheta : Well, I think that was his favorite chapter, maybe. And maybe that was something he had. Not really--. I mean, I know he considered it because he drew it, but I think it. Maybe he had not thought of it quite that way.
Jimmy: Right. Well, that's great. All right, well, we got one last strip, all right, and this one's your favorite. So Here we go.
April 24, 1954. A very young Lucy is sitting on her knees playing a record on a little kid's, record player. And the record's spinning around, and we see that the song is playing, says, Mary wore her red dress, red dress, red dress Mary wore her red dress all day long Lucy sits calmly as the song continues. Mary wore a red hat, red hat, red hat Mary wore a red hat all day long m the third panel, Lucy is still listening as the song plays. Mary wore her red shoes, red shoes, red shoes Mary wore her red shoes all day long and then in the last panel, Lucy removes the record from the record player and says, that poor girl was out of her mind.
Jimmy: That is a great strip.
Rheta : That is just hilarious. And I don't know why. I mean, it's just. To me, that's one of the funniest cartoons I've ever read or seen in my life, and I was one in 1954. But I remember that stupid song.
Jimmy: Oh, really?
Rheta : I was thinking when I heard it, she needs to break. Break this red green or something.
Jimmy: Well, it's just the last thing you think is going to happen in that last panel. I don't know what you do think is going to happen, but you don't think it's going to be that.
Rheta : Yeah, and I guess maybe one of his kids had the record or something. Who knows where that came from. But it's just funny. It's just great stuff.
Harold: That is the punchline in 1954. yeah. Nobody thinks that's coming in. That's so Schulz.
Rheta : Yeah. If there was one area in which he was not insecure, he knew he was good at cartooning, and writing. He knew it. And, you know, it's like Huckleberry Finn. You could read it when you're a kid and get one thing out of it, and you can read it when you're adult, get something entirely different. So I think it makes me happy to know that he did know he was good at that. He might not have thought he was attractive, and he might have had doubts about a lot of things, but he was secure in his drawing and writing.
Jimmy: Well, you know what makes me happy, Rheta? The fact that you a wrote this book and the fact that you, were willing to come on our podcast and talk about it, it just means the world to us. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for the book.
Rheta : Well, you know, thank you. It makes me happy that somebody read the book and remembered that it was out there. I really think what you're doing is a terrific deal, and I'm going to. I've listened to several of your podcasts. I want to listen to more, and I really appreciate that you asked me.
Jimmy: Well, it's our pleasure.
Harold: And thank you for clarifying that, that piece about the, who came up with Peanuts. If you ever catch anything else.
Jimmy: No, that's it. That's the only mistake we've ever made. All right, so that's been the end of today's podcast.
Rheta : No, that's the only thing so far.
Jimmy: Thank you.
Rheta : Terrific job. And thank you for making me feel at ease. Thank you.
Jimmy: Oh, it's our pleasure. Thanks for coming. Well, guys, that was so much fun. What do you think, Michael? What were your thoughts about that?
Harold: you guys are doing a great job. I didn't feel the need to butt in at any point.
Jimmy: I think you covered all the bases. Yeah, she's great. Yeah, that was just a sheer delight and seems, like she should be a regular. Well, Michael, we weren't gonna tell you this, but
Michael: that's fine.
Jimmy: No, never. Never. No. You're not getting rid of me now, are you? You're out of your life. Harold, how about you?
Harold: Yeah, what a treat. I read that book back in. Was it ‘89 when it came out? And I hadn't really revisited it. And getting to read it the day before we got to speak with her, it brought back all of these memories of where I learned about things about Schulz was in her book. she was so thorough and that she was on the ground with him for weeks. It totally shows in the book. So if any of you have not read Good Grief by Rheta Grimsley Johnson, I highly recommend you find a copy of it because it is an amazing portrait of where Charles Schulz was in late 80s and so deep into his career. She captures so much of who he is as a person, and so many stories of things that we love in that strip that Schulz was able to share with her. And I just am super grateful that we actually got to speak with her and get her perspective all these years later on what that experience was like, because she is an amazing biographer. I think she was the perfect biographer for Schulz.
Jimmy: The book is great, and everyone who's listening to this podcast, find a way to find it because it's fantastic. And, if you want to do anything else while you're online, trying to hunt down a copy, you can follow us on good old social media where we're at Unpackpeanuts on Instagram and Threads and unpacking peanuts on Facebook, Blue sky and YouTube. And of course, you can always just give us a call on the hotline 717-219-4162. Give us a call or leave a message because I love hearing from you. Because when I don't hear, I worry.
Other than that. Oh, and you can also email us through unpackingpeanuts@gmaildot com. We love to hear from you, answer your questions, handle your complaints, whatever it takes. We're a full service podcast. So with all that said, until next week for Michael, Harold and Liz, this is Jimmy saying, be of good cheer.
HM&L: Yes, yes, yes. Be of good cheer.
Liz: Unpacking Peanuts is copyright Jimmy Gownley, Michael Cohen, Harold Buchholz and Liz Sumner. Produced and edited by Liz Sumner Music by Michael Cohen. Additional voiceover by Aziza Shukralla Clark. For more from the show, follow unpackpeanuts on instagram and threads unpackingpeanuts on facebook, blue sky and YouTube. For more about jimmy, Michael And Harold, visit unpackingpeanuts.com have a wonderful day and thanks for listening.